Dr. P. C. Rao:   So, you want to concentrate on the fact that there is no distance between you and That—that you are That.

SWAMIJI:  Yes; there is no distance between anything. It is one Being. So this one Being is what people call God. There is no God outside.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   This is where the intellectual exposition gets, in me anyhow—while I do understand the proposition that That is not divisible, I arrive at the root through different ways, but I arrive at the same proposition. I suppose this is very close to the Upanishadic principles. Now, once I come to the conclusion that It is not different from me, I am still unable, because I am still pursuing the logical path as to how I have to come to the separate feeling that I come to feel that I am separate, and that is where you say that we cannot take this enquiry beyond a particular level. In other words, it cannot be explained as to how we have come to feel that we are separate from That.

SWAMIJI:  The difficulty is that we are unable to go beyond the level of the comprehension of egoistic personality. In whatever way we think, we assume that we are existing. Even the consciousness that "I am meditating"—that also must go.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   That means you must dissolve yourself. Now the other thing is that somebody else does this thing and it gives the principle of life. Life itself is infused in you because of that particular thing. Independent of that, you are nothing. Then, also you are not allowing me to go logically on that principle and say, "If I am not independent of that and it is controlling me, the one who is controlling me should control anything."

SWAMIJI:  He does control everything.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   If He does, then why should I be thinking and get blamed for anything at all?

SWAMIJI:  You will not get blamed for that, provided that you are sure that you are not doing it. But you are not sure of it. You feel that you are doing it. If that kind of total inseparable identity with the whole is felt by you, your actions cannot bind you. The Bhagavad Gita is that only.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   But coming to that conclusion, I must cross these hurdles.

SWAMIJI:  That is up to you. You can adopt any method. The Bhagavad Gita is this much: No action can bind you, provided that vision of the cosmos is before you.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   It is my way of looking at it. While the proposition that there is a Universal Principle, and It is indivisible, is logically arguable (that far I am prepared to go), the relationship between what is called individual and the Universal I think depends upon. . .

SWAMIJI:  You see, there is a conceptual relation, but not a real relation. And conceptual relation is not. . .

Dr. P. C. Rao:   It is only after you go beyond the concept that you feel you get integrated with that principle. First you have to go through that evolution, thinking process.

SWAMIJI:  That is meditation. Again and again assert that position.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   Swamiji, whatever you say gets implanted in me and I don’t leave it. I keep thinking this every day, but yet I have not evolved into that.

SWAMIJI:  The very fact that you are able to understand that shows that you have evolved enough to make it a part of your life.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   I am not satisfied with that, Swamiji.

SWAMIJI:  You are not giving sufficient time to think.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   Either I am not giving sufficient time to think, or I have really come to a stage where I am unable to break through.

SWAMIJI:  You are not unable to understand; you can understand it. The only thing is that you have to assert it in your consciousness. And you are not going to be a loser. You are actually going to be a gainer by that. Your dimension will be enhanced, and why should you say that you have no time to think while it is the thing that you are actually aspiring for? Don’t you want to become a larger person of a larger dimension? How can you say that you have no time?

Dr. P. C. Rao:   Otherwise, this enquiry would have been given up.

SWAMIJI:  Don’t you like to be promoted? You should not say, “I have no time to think of it like that.” You will certainly find time if you are going to . . .

Dr. P. C. Rao:   I do find—it is not physically finding time. I have, to some extent, read all your books. . .

SWAMIJI:  It is not actually the question of physically finding time. It is the quality of thought. It should just take possession of you, as when a person is drowning in water. Only one thought will be there at that time. You will be thinking nothing else.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   The Canadian lawyer’s questions are very much my questions, and they will continue to be my questions. In terms of intellectual satisfaction, the Canadian lawyer’s questions, his wife’s questions, still continue to haunt me because they happen to be my own questions.

SWAMIJI:  It is everybody’s question.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   The answers you have given have not completely dissolved my doubts.

SWAMIJI:  You have to ponder over that again and again, and the whole thought should sink into your feeling, so that you are living that thought. You are not simply thinking it, you are that.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   And then the environment in which I live, as we were discussing—the Sankaracharyas and various intellectual or religious leaders, etc.—they go about their activities, but it doesn’t generate the amount of faith that one hopes these leaders do.

SWAMIJI:  They are unnecessarily interfering in matters which are to nobody’s good. There is no benefit. No purpose is served by that. They come so low to the segmented social level. It is not their duty also. They are supposed to inspire you spiritually in a divine manner, not interfere in political governments. That is not their duty. What is the purpose? Why are they so much interested in it? Though political activity is worthwhile, there are other people to do that. Why are these people doing that? If everybody becomes only a politician, then who will be there to think and impart knowledge? Everybody can become a businessman. Then, what will happen?

Sri C. G. Krishnamurty:   But then Swamiji, how about the gunas? If no two human beings are the same, and if all of them are parts of the same whole. . .

SWAMIJI:  In that condition of your deep meditation, the gunas will cease to operate. The gunas will not operate at that time. If at all there is some guna, it is sattva guna at that time. No rajas and tamas will be there at that time. Only when you assert your individual personality, the rajas and tamas will come. Rajas and tamas are characteristics of the ego consciousness, whereas sattva is of divine consciousness. And gradually they will evaporate. What is the time now? We sit for meditation and you can also sit. We sit at five o’clock, from five to six.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   Reading-wise, I read practically all of your books, and I read the message directly given to me by you on each of my visits. They make a very deep impact on me. But yet, I am still a doubting Thomas you may call it—I am a person who has to be intellectually satisfied.

SWAMIJI:  I think to a large extent you have been satisfied.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   No, Swamiji. In other words, I am satisfied up to the stage that there is a Universal Principle, and that It is indivisible—that there is no birth and death, etc. Up to that, logically it is arguable.

SWAMIJI:  But you must know the conclusion from that.

Dr. P. C. Rao:   That is the stage of the Universal and the individual. You know in Christianity, Hinduism—I think each religion tried to explain this very relationship, and they have done so in their own manner, but sometimes I feel perhaps this is only intellectually explained. So, for me, you could say I am somewhat confused.