Visitor:  The scripture speaks of our dream state and our awakening state; but, at the same time, it says that everything is illusion.

SWAMIJI: It is not illusion. As long as you believe that it is there, you can see it. It is illusion only for the person who cannot see it, and will not see it. When you are seeing it with your eyes and you are believing that it is there, then why do you call it illusion? Who told you that it is illusion?

Visitor: No one.

SWAMIJI: Does your feeling say that it is illusion?

Visitor:  No I don’t think that it is…

SWAMIJI: Then what is the good of saying it is illusion? Somebody is saying something, and you are quoting it. Your heart should say that it is illusion; then, you are free from it. You will not cling to an illusion. Who clings to an illusion? It is an illusion only when you transcend it. When you are experiencing it, why do you call it an illusion? It has a relative reality. It may not be absolutely real, but it is relatively real. It has a workable reality - a tentative reality. What binds you is your feeling that something is real. What the scripture says has no meaning; it has no relevance to you.  The scripture cannot bind you, and it cannot liberate you. Your feelings will bind you and liberate you.  Do you believe that the world is real? Then you are bound, even if the scripture says another thing. But if you say the world does not exist for some reason - “I have got some conviction that for some reason it does not exist” - then it cannot bind you. But your heart should be convinced that it does not exist, and you must also have a reason why it does not exist. What is the reason you say it does not exist? What are the proofs? Bring the proofs. If the proofs are there, the world will vanish. But you if have no proof to say that the world is not existing, it will be clinging. Merely saying something is not the answer. You must have an argument and a proof and a conviction in the heart that, “For these reasons I can really feel that it is not Ultimate Reality. Therefore, I cannot cling to it.” But if your heart says it is very nice, then why do you call it illusion? It is illusion to a person who is convinced that it does not exist. But if you are not convinced, then why do you call it illusion?

Visitor:  Because I did not understand when I was saying to Swami Brahmananda...

SWAMIJI: Let Swami Brahmananda say anything. What are you saying?

Visitor:  I said, “How can I say that it doesn’t exist, if for me it exists? Right now it exists. I exist and I can touch my body.”

SWAMIJI: To the extent it exists, is a binding factor. You cannot be free from it. But you must find out the way. Ask Swami Brahmanandaji, “Why do you call it illusion?” You ask him tomorrow.

Visitor: I am leaving tonight.

SWAMIJI: You could not find a better time to ask than now? Than one minute before going? You simply throw the world out and go out from here? In one minute? Why did you not ask Brahmanandaji? You were sitting every day and you would not ask him a question?

Visitor:  No, I asked him for examples. He said as an example the bangle and the gold - that everything is gold…

SWAMIJI:  Are you convinced that it is gold and not the bangle? The whole world is only gold and not the bangle?

Visitor:  I can understand that it is gold…

SWAMIJI: You understand?

Visitor:  The intellect can understand that I am…

SWAMIJI: Why do you say it is all gold and not bangle? What is the argument behind it?

Visitor:  Well, he explained to us that ‘bangle’ is a name that we give to the objects and the subject.  

SWAMIJI: We have to deeply meditate on this great truth that all these objects of the world are only variations, formations of a single substance, and, therefore, these variations and forms and diversities are not true. Gold has never become the bangles; it is still gold only, looking a little round.Similarly, the one substance looks like the world because of the shape it has taken through space and time. And you are also included in the various shapes that it has taken. Therefore, neither you exist nor the various forms exist. It is one substance that exists. You should not unnecessarily going on clinging to the form of Mr. So-and-so and the form of something else. It is like clinging to a chain and a ring or a particular ornament, forgetting that it is gold. It requires deep meditation. Whatever you see with your eyes, including your own self, actually is a form of the one Universal Substance. Therefore, when you think, actually the Universal Substance is thinking.  You are not thinking; you are not doing anything, nor are you moving from place to place. Nothing is happening, really speaking. It is in the dream world of the Cosmic Consciousness and, therefore, it is one thought that is operating. The Universal Thought is thinking the whole cosmos - which means to say, you are not thinking. The idea that you are thinking must go away from your mind, because you are included in that universal thought; therefore, you are not thinking it. Rather, it is thinking you. Instead of you thinking it, it is thinking you - the other way round. So, all your thoughts should be melted down into one single universal thought, and you should think nothing else but that. Then you will find that what Brahmananda Swamiji said is correct. The world will vanish; it won’t be there afterwards.But, deep meditation along these lines should be carried on day and night.

Visitor:  Thank you.

Francis:According to the Panchadasi, avidya is the cause of aviveka. What is the difference between the two of them?

SWAMIJI: The unconsciousness of the existence of a Universal Reality is called avidya, and the incapacity to distinguish between the Universal Reality and the appearance of the world is aviveka. You understand me? The unconsciousness of the existence of the Universal Reality is avidya; the incapacity to distinguish between the Universal Reality and the appearance of the world is aviveka. Do you catch the point? Do you understand what I say?

Francis: Is avidya connectedwith avarana?

SWAMIJI: Yes, you can say that. It is something like that.

Visitor:  What is the technical difference between Ishvara and Saguna Brahman?

SWAMIJI: Ishvara is same as Saguna Brahman. There are three stages of the manifestation of the Supreme Absolute, Brahman: Ishvara, Hiranyagarbha and Virat. All these three stages - Ishvara, Hiranyagarbha and Virat - are also called Ishvara only, in one way. The total concept of the inclusiveness of Ishvara, Hiranyagarbha and Virat is also called Ishvara, and it is the same as Saguna Brahman. Qualified Absolute - it means Qualified Absolute.

Francis: From an absolute point of view there is no creation, but from a relative point of view there is creation. Do these theories of creation describe a temporal process, or rather do they describe the logical structure of the degrees of Reality?

SWAMIJI: It looks like a temporal process to the human mind which thinks in terms of temporal process. Here you have your great friend Immanuel Kant coming to your aid, who said that the mind of the human being cannot think except in terms of space and time and, therefore, every event is interpreted by the human mind in terms of space and time, which means the temporal process.Though that process might not be temporal, the mind thinks it is temporal. God has not created a temporal process, because God is not existing in time. Do you understand? Therefore, you cannot say that God has created the world as a temporal process. It is not a historical movement that God has initiated. There is no history for God, because that is in time and He is above time. It is a logical process rather than a temporal historical process.

Visitor:  How can you prove that perception is the movement of the mind towards the object? How do you prove this movement - that perception is the movement of the mind towards the object?

SWAMIJI: I gave you that little book - you never read that book - that Yoga, Meditation and Japa Sadhana book which I give to all people. The first part of it is only that - and you have not read it. What I meant is, unless your consciousness contacts the object, it cannot become aware of the object. And if the object is different from consciousness in quality, consciousness cannot know that there is an object. Therefore, the object of consciousness cannot be totally outside consciousness. If it is not outside consciousness, it should be within consciousness and, therefore, it is a part of consciousness only. This is the answer. Do you understand the point? Otherwise, you can’t be aware that there is an object, if it is totally outside it. How will you contact the object when it is totally different? What is the link between object and consciousness? Therefore, consciousness must have an inherent, implicit presence in the object itself, which is another way of saying that the object itself is a potential consciousness - concluding thereby that the whole universe is consciousness. Do you catch the point?

Visitor:  Yes. When the scriptures say that sound is transmitted by ether and not by the air, how can we make it compatible with the normal physical theory that sound travels through the air?

SWAMIJI: Sound cannot travel without air. When the scriptures say that sound travels through ether, they mean it travels through air, which is in ether. That is the idea. Where air is absent, sound cannot travel. That is the point.

Visitor:  About the theory of karma. I think we cannot prove that the things which happen to me in some particular moment are due only to my own previous actions, because it is possible that they are due to the other processes which are external to me.

SWAMIJI: What are the other processes?

Visitor:  For example, weather, or somebody comes here…

SWAMIJI: You see, again you are bringing in weather and all that. Weather, etc., are objects of consciousness. And I told you, you cannot have any connection with objects unless your consciousness is implicit in them. So, we should not say some external causes are troubling you. There are no external causes. They are connected with your consciousness. Therefore, they seem to be troubling you. So, there is no external cause. The external cause, so called, is also implicit in your consciousness. Otherwise, you won’t be affected by that. If there is no connection at all between you and the weather, it won’t affect you at all. It has connection with you, because it is also an object, and every object is implicitly consciousness - which means to say, it is connected with your consciousness also and, therefore, there is action and reaction between subject and object. That action and reaction between subject and object is called karma. That is all. It is like the law of gravitation. The whole universe is conditioning you because of your consciousness being connected to everything in the world. Every cell of the brain of a person is connected to every atom in the cosmos; this is the modern theory of physics. Every cell in your brain is connected to every part of the cosmos. And so there is nothing with which you are not connected. Hence, you are a cosmic man basically, wrongly thinking that you are an individual person, and so this action and reaction taking place between your wrong notion of the individuality and the actual Absolute is the cause of this gravitational force, which is morally or ethically called karma. It is like the law of gravitation, which is operative between the individual and the Absolute on account of the wrong notion of the individual that it is separate from the Absolute.Karma will not act if you are identical with the Absolute. Karma acts as long as you are outside it. Do you understand? So, there is no karma for the Absolute. And you also will not have any karma, provided you are merged in the Absolute consciousness in your deep meditation. All karmas will be destroyed in one minute. But if you persist in thinking that “I am Mr. Francis and some separate individual from the cosmos”, it will react upon you. That reaction is called karma. That is the point.

Visitor: Yes, I understand.

SWAMIJI: What I am telling you just now is explained in a little more detail in my book, The Philosophy of Religion, under a section called The Theory of Karma.

Visitor: I am not convinced about the proofs of the theory of rebirth.